Stephen Miller, Trump s White House senior adviser, and speechwriter testified today, testify today before a federal grand jury in the January 6 investigation. He is now the first known witness to testify since the Justice Department appointed a special counsel.
So, Caitlyn, you broke this story. Tell us more. Well, Stephen Miller has always been a very important and close adviser to Donald Trump in the White House at the end of the presidency, after the election, and up to and including January 6, he was his speechwriter.
And so what Miller would be able to talk to the grand jury about what we know he's already talked to the separate House investigation about is how Trump's speech came about on January 6 to his supporters, the crowd that eventually rioted at the Capitol Champion hang the bike, Pence.
And one of the things that we know from public reporting from the House Select Committee previously is that Miller talked to Trump about what he was going to say about Pence. It appears they had a phone call.
And then after that phone call the morning of January 6, Donald Trump did want to put lines in his speech about Mike Pence, about how they needed Pence to block the election result. And so this is the first person that we have identified who went into the grand jury after the appointment of Special counsel Jack Smith.
It clearly is showing us how this criminal investigation in the federal court system is moving along at quite a clip and focusing on Donald Trump and what was happening, and what he was saying inside the White House.
Kate and Caitlin, there's also there's a bit more I need to ask about as well. We're also hearing that tonight that Donald Trump's former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, he's been ordered to testify in the other investigation, the investigation in Georgia that's investigating the efforts to overturn the 2020 election there.
What does this mean for that case tonight? Well, this was an order from the Supreme Court of South Carolina today. And it said that any arguments, the arguments so far that Mark Meadows had made in this separate criminal probe in Georgia, were manifest without merit that he would need to show up and testify.
The reason investigation is so interesting in Mark Meadows is that he was privy to a call between then President Donald Trump and the Secretary of State in Georgia pressuring him to find votes. He also was in meetings in December 2020.
And so he became a person that they have wanted to get insight into. Now, one of the things that when you step back from this and try to look at the big import here is Georgia. This investigation is one of the tips of the spear right many investigations are going on and so what they get first, other investigations may also try to pursue and get as well.
Kate, a great point. It's good to see you. Caitlin, thanks for the report. I appreciate it. Out front. With me now is Evan Perez, senior Justice Correspondent Ryan Goodman, editor in Chief of Just Security and former special Counsel at the Defense Department, and legal Analyst Ellie Honig, who's a former Assistant US.
Attorney for the Southern District of New York. Ryan, let's start with the big news in the verdict tonight. When it comes to the Oath Keepers and the Oath Keepers founder Stuart Rhodes guilty on the most serious charge associated with January 6.
How significant is this? So I think it's a very big deal. It's a historical moment for the country to have a jury find the leader of a militia group in the United States guilty of trying to use violence to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power.
And I think it's also super important for what comes next, which is the next militia group. The Proud Boys are also going to go on trial, their leaders for the same charge. And I think they have to be watching this very closely and their lawyers must have a very serious conversation with them now about whether or not they do want to flip and cooperate with the government.
Now, seeing that the Justice Department. Can succeed in bringing a successful case to a point of conviction for the leaders. And in fact, there's even stronger evidence when it comes to the Proud voice.
I think that's a big implication of this. There's a great point, and Evan Ryan calls it historic. How big is this for the Justice Department? I mean, why was it key for them to get a guilty verdict on Seditious conspiracy?
Look, it was pretty, I think, the controversial thing inside the Justice Department as they waited and as they work towards bringing this case. If you remember, we reported that it was Mike Sherwin who was a Trump-appointed acting US.
An attorney here in DC. Who first tried to bring these charges? And when Merrick Garland took over at the Justice Department, he put it on hold and had them work some another six, seven months before he approved for those charges to come forward again.
They didn't know. They thought it was a risky thing to do. And then there was a second thing here, the other charge here, which is the obstruction of a congressional proceeding, there was some doubt inside the Justice Department as to whether judges might even allow those charges to go forward again.
Both those things have gone forward. Juries have now endorsed them. And it strengthens the hand, as Ryan just pointed out, in the Proud Boys case. But also in the big case, the case that, frankly, the Justice Department is working towards, which is the one that Trump is at the center of, the question of whether the former president was impeding the transfer of power, whether he was using he was part of a conspiracy to do that is part of what the Justice Department is pursuing.
And this strengthens their hand in that investigation. Ellie, can you weigh in on that? Because I was really curious and your perspective, is it clear to you what this verdict kind of next steps, what this means for Donald Trump?
Well, I think, first of all, picture this is. Forceful rejection of many of the lies Donald Trump and others have told about the election and about January 6. This is a rejection of the idea that this was not organized, that this was spontaneous, that this was not serious, that this was not violent, and it was a rejection by a jury, our most basic bulwark of liberty, of democracy here.
Juries are not stupid. The juries can see through BS. And this jury was very careful. More practically, Kate, you could see, theoretically, people flip. I've seen plenty of times when someone has said, let me go to trial and see what happens.
Then when you get convicted and you're looking down the barrel of a 20-year sentence, that can change incentives a little bit. So we don't know if that may happen, but if so, we'll see what dominoes may fall.
But I think anyone around this should be concerned about that. And, Ryan, the other big news that we were just talking about with Caitlin Poland, her reporting is that former top Trump aide Stephen Miller has now testified today before the federal grand jury investigating January 6.
And Miller was tight in there. I mean, he has firsthand knowledge of some key moments, preparation, and intent of the speech, the intent of what Donald Trump is looking to do in presenting this and giving his speech to his supporters, who then turned around and then attacked the Capitol.
Where do you see this going? So he is the kind of person who can get into the mindset of Donald Trump on January 6, according to the select committee, he has a conversation with Trump for over 25 minutes about the speech and introduces it does sound like at least some of the language on Mike Pence.
Then Stephen Miller says and he says to the committee that he spoke to Eric Kirsten, one of the lawyers, who said, get that stuff out of the speech. And then after Trump has a confrontation with Pence, even more of it comes in.
So I'm sure he must have had some conversation with Trump after 25 minutes plus to say, what are you trying to get at? What are you trying to produce here? And we know that he said that to the committee.
There's a very good chance he claimed privilege. And like others did. But it sounds like the wall of executive privilege has fallen apart when it comes to the grand jury. And the fact that he's been testifying as a senior aide to the president, I think is very significant in terms of the type of evidence he can get.
Well, we've heard it over and over again, which is what you say to the January 6 committee. Very different standard of what is expected of you, of you when you're sitting before a grand jury, of course, a federal grand jury.
Ellie, you've long said when it comes to Mark Meadows, that he is also key to nearly every investigation involving Donald Trump. And this is another big deal for that investigation in Georgia. It is, Kate.
Mark Meadows, in my view, is the most important single witness here. He was by Donald Trump's side throughout the run-up to January 6. He was on that famous call or infamous call with Brad Rapidsberger.
And today, Mark Meadows learned the hard way that a grand jury subpoena that he got from Fulton County is very different from a congressional subpoena. Mark Meadows essentially brushed off the congressional subpoena.
He was never even charged with contempt. He had no consequences. Well, he learned today from the South Carolina Supreme Court unanimously, you cannot brush off a grand jury subpoena. And now he will have to go down to Atlanta, into Georgia, and testify under oath in front of that grand jury.
And the DA is going to have some crucial questions to ask him. And he's got to be true to us. He's looking at a potential perjury charge. So this is a big step, a. Lot of big steps this evening, and also a long list of names we're getting at Evan.
I mean, there's a long list of Trump aides and those close to him around some key moments that have been ordered to testify before the Fulton County grand jury. We now have Mark Meadows. We have Rudy Giuliani.
We have Michael Flynn, Boris Epstein, and Lindsey Graham as well, being told he's going to need to speak in that investigation, it just seems to keep going and going. And to what end? I mean, where is this all headed?
Well, I think the Justice Department has not said who the target of that investigation is, but as you can see from that list that you just gave, those are the ones that have gone to the grand jury in Georgia.
Those are the same people that the Justice Department is interested in. And that makes it clear that the man at the center of all this is Donald Trump. And so that's what is very much clear, the fact now that you have a special counsel focusing on this investigation.
Kate, Judy, it's. Good to see you all. Thanks so much for working through all of that this evening. A lot coming in.